• alef
  • #! CrunchBanger
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  • Registered: 2009-02-05
  • Posts: 192

Topic: windows license refund

Hi,

Do you know whether it is possible to be refunded of the price of windows license when you buy a new computer with pre-installed OS in your country ? In france, law says so, it is illegal to force you to buy software when you only want hardware. Only few manufacturers let you choose not to buy it, all of them are supposed to refund you if you ask, but not many do that easily. there are websites about this, listing and ranking them:
manufacturers ranking: http://bons-constructeurs-ordinateurs.info/
sellers ranking: http://bons-vendeurs-ordinateurs.info/
procedure for a refund: http://racketiciel.info/

These people have started an international version of this, but not many information (needs input from the public):
http://racketware.info/good-computer-manufacturers (english)

I am planning to buy a laptop from UK, with windows pre-installed. First thing i will do when unpacking the machine is to format it and install crunchbang. Does anyone know whether it is possible to have the price of license refund, and how to do it ?

many thanks.

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  • From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2009-06-29
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: windows license refund

Generally no. I've heard of one case of a man who heckled his manufacturer, reseller, and microsoft. He eventually got a refund from the manufacturer.
Turns out, with the agreement (from what I understand) between the manufacturer and microsoft, the money will come out of the manufacturers pocket, not microsofts, which is why it is very hard to get one.

just call me...
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  • alef
  • #! CrunchBanger
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  • Registered: 2009-02-05
  • Posts: 192

Re: windows license refund

^ oh that's so bad. in france you get refund easily with some sellers, with difficulties with some others, but consumers who have brought ugly businessmen to court always won and got some money back afaikn. isn't it the least thing a state should do to its citizens ?

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  • From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2009-06-29
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: windows license refund

alef wrote:

^ oh that's so bad. in france you get refund easily with some sellers, with difficulties with some others, but consumers who have brought ugly businessmen to court always won and got some money back afaikn. isn't it the least thing a state should do to its citizens ?

I'm actually from Canada, the man i was refering to came from the US.

And yea, everywhere I have been, you can be easily refunded with most sellers, and like you said some things are more difficult. However, this is a special case.

just call me...
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  • From: Mexicali, Mexico
  • Registered: 2009-07-09
  • Posts: 179

Re: windows license refund

I have no idea if it  is possible in Mexico. I will try contacting Telmex (principal provider of broadband internet service and computer sales in Mexico) and Dell Mexico. But I think that they will act like they are not listening... hmm

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  • From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2009-06-29
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: windows license refund

Its kinda equivalent to this:

Your sold a sandwich, and want a refund because you didnt use the meat you just threw in the garbage.

Last edited by FiniteStateMachine (2010-03-24 01:20:01)

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  • Registered: 2009-10-09
  • Posts: 429

Re: windows license refund

blackbinary wrote:

Generally no. I've heard of one case of a man who heckled his manufacturer, reseller, and microsoft. He eventually got a refund from the manufacturer.
Turns out, with the agreement (from what I understand) between the manufacturer and microsoft, the money will come out of the manufacturers pocket, not microsofts, which is why it is very hard to get one.

I've read that too, and also a case where the seller gave the refund. I prefer to shop with local or small sellers, and while I build (or refurbish) my desktops myself if I was getting a laptop I guess I could try to pursue it, but if it was the manufacturer it would probably take more time than it's worth, or if it's the seller while they might refund it to keep me happy, I don't know I'd want to do that (since it would probably cost them more to reclaim it than to just take the loss).

  • From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2009-06-29
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: windows license refund

chillicampari wrote:
blackbinary wrote:

Generally no. I've heard of one case of a man who heckled his manufacturer, reseller, and microsoft. He eventually got a refund from the manufacturer.
Turns out, with the agreement (from what I understand) between the manufacturer and microsoft, the money will come out of the manufacturers pocket, not microsofts, which is why it is very hard to get one.

I've read that too, and also a case where the seller gave the refund. I prefer to shop with local or small sellers, and while I build (or refurbish) my desktops myself if I was getting a laptop I guess I could try to pursue it, but if it was the manufacturer it would probably take more time than it's worth, or if it's the seller while they might refund it to keep me happy, I don't know I'd want to do that (since it would probably cost them more to reclaim it than to just take the loss).

Yea, the one i read the guy did eventually get a $200 cheque, but it took him over a year to get it.

just call me...
~FSM~
  • From: Deep in The Swedish Woods
  • Registered: 2008-11-28
  • Posts: 578

Re: windows license refund

It's possible here in Sweden.

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  • scket
  • #! CrunchBanger
  • Offline
  • From: West Midlands
  • Registered: 2009-01-16
  • Posts: 168

Re: windows license refund

Dell bars Win 7 refunds from Linux lovers

  • Registered: 2008-11-24
  • Posts: 2,085

Re: windows license refund

I agree with Dell. You are not buying the computer's components individually; you are buying a single inventory item at a fixed price. In other words, you are buying the contents of a box that is packed, sealed, and sitting in the Dell warehouse ready for delivery. You knew the contents of the box when you bought it; if you don't like what's in the box, you should have bought a different box somewhere else.

If you compare comparable hardware from Dell (Windows), Apple (Mac OS), and System76 (Ubuntu), there is no question that the Dell is the least expensive bit-for-byte. Dell's lawyer would no doubt argue that the consumer does not pay a premium for Windows and therefore is reasonably entitled to a refund of zero dollars according to the Microsoft EULA.

Furthermore, if you look at Dell's pricing, the same system typically costs more with Linux preinstalled than with Windows. By that logic, the "Windows tax" is actually negative and customers who refuse the Windows EULA actually owe Dell for the difference. smile

  • #1936
  • #! CrunchBanger
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  • Registered: 2009-05-15
  • Posts: 124

Re: windows license refund

snowpine wrote:

I agree with Dell. You are not buying the computer's components individually; you are buying a single inventory item at a fixed price. In other words, you are buying the contents of a box that is packed, sealed, and sitting in the Dell warehouse ready for delivery. You knew the contents of the box when you bought it; if you don't like what's in the box, you should have bought a different box somewhere else.

If you compare comparable hardware from Dell (Windows), Apple (Mac OS), and System76 (Ubuntu), there is no question that the Dell is the least expensive bit-for-byte. Dell's lawyer would no doubt argue that the consumer does not pay a premium for Windows and therefore is reasonably entitled to a refund of zero dollars according to the Microsoft EULA.

Furthermore, if you look at Dell's pricing, the same system typically costs more with Linux preinstalled than with Windows. By that logic, the "Windows tax" is actually negative and customers who refuse the Windows EULA actually owe Dell for the difference. smile


well, i actually disagree...and i'll try to explain why.
when i'm buying a laptop i'm buying hardware. i do not want anything pre-installed, did not ask for it...however, where i'm currently living is almost impossible to get a new laptop with no windows pre-installed. so when i bought it i specifically asked the guy: look, i don't want no windows, i will format it as soon as i get home, no warranty problems right? wrong! once you format your HD you loose the warranty!
and so it was...in my case an asus! formatted the HD and did my thing. 1 1/2 years later my HD goes bad. call Asus, do all the tests, bla bla, ok its the HD.
they pick it up, 2 days later they e-mail me: you formated your HD, lost the warranty! and i'm like, look i do not use windows, i did not accept any terms, bla bla...it took me dozens of emails to get them to change my HD.
it's just an example but my point is: i'm buying hardware and that's it. the same way they can't force me when i buy a car to just use fuel from shell or whatever (stupid metaphor, i know...).
as for refunds i don't have much to say as i'm not sure to what they are legally obliged to.

  • From: Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2009-06-29
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: windows license refund

#1936 wrote:

well, i actually disagree...and i'll try to explain why.
when i'm buying a laptop i'm buying hardware. i do not want anything pre-installed, did not ask for it...

I don't think it like that. When you buy a laptop, your buying the laptop. That means everything. You can't buy a laptop, but tell the company you don't need the hard drive. It doesn't work that way (usually at least). A laptop, when sold to you, is considered all its parts, including OS, as one package. Your agreeing when you buy it, that you want the OS. As i said, you can't knock off other parts of the laptop just because you don't want them.

just call me...
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  • pitje
  • #! Junkie
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  • From: me to you
  • Registered: 2009-02-10
  • Posts: 401

Re: windows license refund

blackbinary wrote:
#1936 wrote:

well, i actually disagree...and i'll try to explain why.
when i'm buying a laptop i'm buying hardware. i do not want anything pre-installed, did not ask for it...

I don't think it like that. When you buy a laptop, your buying the laptop. That means everything. You can't buy a laptop, but tell the company you don't need the hard drive. It doesn't work that way (usually at least). A laptop, when sold to you, is considered all its parts, including OS, as one package. Your agreeing when you buy it, that you want the OS. As i said, you can't knock off other parts of the laptop just because you don't want them.

hmmm... I'm half with you, and half with 1936 on this one: when you buy a laptop, you buy a complete package. You know what comes with it, and what doesn't.
On the other hand it's pretty hard to find a laptop that doesn't come with windows pre-installed (they exist, but they're kinda hard to find). Also, the fact that a company drops warranty just because you formatted the harddrive, seems outrageous to me.

I've always been under the impression that because of all the crap that comes pre-installed on most machines, the prices go down. All those companies (microsoft, norton, sophos, etc...) are paying for their software to be preinstalled, which keeps the price of the hardware down. Maybe I'm wrong in this, but that's what I've been told, and that's what seems reasonable to me. (and also explains the fact so few computers come pre-installed with linux -> who's paying for it?)

edit: fixed some typo's

Last edited by pitje (2010-03-24 15:54:11)

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  • From: U.S.A!
  • Registered: 2010-03-14
  • Posts: 37

Re: windows license refund

I have looked into this as I had a similar experience when ordering my lappy from Dell a few years ago.  I wasn't really looking to haggle for a few dollars off the price, I just wanted to save a step or two in getting my new box set up.  I also didn't want to put any more money into M$'s dirty coffers. 

I could always be wrong, but from what all I've read online and learned from local shops, I think snowpine and pitje have it right above.  The problem is that big OEM's are not just retailers of customized hardware anymore.  They have become pushers of software; their products a vehicle for direct advertising.  How much do you figure Norton or McAfee or Nero or whatever make-WIndows-actually-work software company pays the OEM to put those annoying trial apps on your system, complete with icons and nagging?  When you ask for hardware with an OS that doesn't need that crap or you don't want an OS at all, you take away their vehicle.   Further, you are asking them to give up revenue and the profit margin on the machine.  It's like calling up your phone book publisher and telling them you would like to have a copy of their directory delivered without the ads all over it.  Even though such a book would require less ink and paper, they would probably need to charge you for a non-subsidized book.

It is really a stranglehold that these folks, starting with M$, have enacted on the OEM's, holding them by the cohones of profit margins.  Microsoft OS's cost the OEM money to buy, but are full of security holes and missing functionality.  Enter the software makers/advertisers to pay the Microsoft tax and increase the profit margin of the OEM.  This arrangement fortifies the marketshare of M$, solidifies consumer need for companies like Norton, and pays them all more than they would have had in a more consumer-driven arrangement.  It destroys a portion of the free market as a consequence, as smaller OEM's not in such deals often have less competitive pricing structures.  And, of course, it takes away from consumers' freedom of choice in operating systems.

So when Dell or Lenovo et al tell you that they are not just selling hardware, they are selling a complete package, they really are telling the truth.

Either way, the idea that reformatting a HDD voids hardware warranty is absurd and should be litigated.  Such a precedent is like saying that installing a third party media player app on your box and not using WMP voids the warranty on your video or sound card.  Just plain dirty extortion and bad customer service.  It's a shame that we can't build our own laptops as easily as we can desktop boxes.

Last edited by epidenimus (2010-03-24 18:23:05)

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