• Registered: 2009-11-19
  • Posts: 5

Topic: First few weeks of #!

Just popping in to give feedback on CrunchBang. Have only just registered so forgive me if I repeat stuff that has been said countless times before.

Forum Registration ::-
a) Give email address twice
- I suppose this is because you want to test that copy&paste is working properly ?? [sarcasm]
b) Password blobs
- Please consider an option to show password characters while they are being typed. Hiding passwords forces users to type very slowly and carefully. That makes it easy for bad guys to see your password by looking at your fingers on the keyboard, instead of looking at your screen.
There is a recent website or an application (perhaps in this very CrunchBang) that has such an option. I was AMAZED at what a relief it was to be able to see my password as I type it. I touch-type: just imagine what a difference it would make to people who have physical difficulty with typing.

CrunchBang v9.04 ::-
Been using Ubuntu for years, after a bit of SUSE and Knoppix. Trying CrunchBang because I got tired of Open Office  and Evolution, which I never use and which have 70MB security updates every two weeks, but which cannot be completely removed due to (stupid) dependencies. Also got fed up with every new release of Ubuntu breaking something that used to work ok, without introducing any improvements that I noticed or cared about. (Yeah, I know #! is based upon Ubuntu minimal.)

I like the sparse, clean look during booting; what they used to call "elegant".

Black and dark grey theme and wallpaper was too depressing after a few days. After 10 years in sunny Australia moving back to UK winter, such a gloomy desktop is the last thing I need. (What is it with black? Long ago every computer was beige. In recent years every computer has been black. Yet everybody still thinks black is "cool"?) However, found brilliant high-res multi-screen wallpapers at http://www.mandolux.com/.

Also there is, to my eye, far too little contrast between the active window+tab and the inactive ones. I changed to Taqua theme : bright green window bar and blue tab edges when active. Themes were stuffed when first installed. I suppose that is because LXF (Linux Format magazine) DVD removed bits of them when they chopped out the movie codecs. Fixed easily by getting/updating themes in Synaptic.

Suggestion : how about an introductory getting-started page, giving a quick summary of differences from standard Ubuntu? A single paragraph description of each utility/application; what can be found in each section of the menus; and so on. A single place would be handier than having to look in all those help/man pages separately. After some weeks I still have not looked at what half the menu items are for.

I have not noticed this is faster than Gnome+Nautilus. Maybe it is one of those things you only notice if you go back and find it slower.

Nice to see Claws (which I have been using for years) instead of bloated Evolution. Likewise AbiWord.

Conky is nice. But the cost of all that flexibility is that one spends days tweaking (5 days elapsed in my case). Under Gnome there are just a few graphs to turn on or off and the only things to tweak are the colours. Takes only minutes. Still, my disk piecharts may be of interest - I will plonk them in the Conky page.

Pity that "build-essential" and "linux-headers" packages are not part of the standard distro, considering #! is supposed to be for more advanced users.

What a relief not to mess about with wpa-supplicant when auto-connecting to a fixed home wireless network. This may be because it is improved in Ubuntu 9.04 or because I finally discovered the trick of giving an empty password to the keyring. (Also discovered the router's DHCP can assign fixed IP to MAC addresses, so don't have to mess about with network manager and /etc/network/interfaces - I completely stuffed my first CrunchBang install when I tried my usual setup tricks : I suppose Ubuntu broke/changed them again.)

Generally, I am rather happy with CrunchBang (even though I reckon that "#!" is pronounced "HashEek"), apart from a few problems.

Tried "Enable Eyecandy" (xcompmgr-crunchbang --startstop &) in autostart.sh (under Prefs - Openbox) but that caused windows randomly to vanish or become blank grey blurs.

Two things annoy me about the default file manager PCManFM ::-
1) stupid nag "Do you really want to delete?" without any way to turn off
- all this does is to train the user in the habit of automatically clicking "Yes", while being very irritating.
2) does not use Trash (so why is there a .Trash directory?)
- Personally I've only ever recovered files from trash once or twice in several years (because I have a separate computer that takes a backup every hour and I also use GIT). However, disks are so big and growing so fast that most people never fill them up. Furthermore, file datablocks do not actually get deleted, they only get overwritten when the block is eventually re-allocated. Therefore it seems sensible to move things to .Trash for a while, instead of "deleting" them (i.e. removing them from directory/FAT)
I will try changing to Thunar.

Scroll-wheel to flip between virtual desktops is irritating (I have one of those free-wheeling ones) because it only triggers when cursor is outside a window on the desktop. Didn't know what the hell was happening, the first time.

Most annoying thing is dragging window edges to resize. It always takes me 2 or 3 attempts. Here is why: move mouse to edge of window; nothing happens, so keep moving; cursor changes to drag-resize; click and start to drag BUT cursor changes back to pointer at that moment and I drag nothing. Problem is that there is a delay before cursor changes to drag-resize and another delay before it changes back; also that the window edge is so narrow.  By the time the cursor changes to drag-resize, I've already moved off the window edge, but the cursor has not changed back. So I am forced to try again, very slowly and carefully. This is a nuisance with Gnome, but is much worse with Openbox. The ironic thing is that the computer can react far quicker than a human, but it is forcing me to wait for its stupid artificial delays! How nice it would be if either the delays could be turned off, or - better - if the cursor snapped to the edge as it got near. Windows snap beside each other quite nicely when they get close enough. Same sort of thing should happen for drag-resizing window edges.

Worst problem is this computer freezes/locks-up sometimes. It has happened several times under #!, but never under Ubuntu 8.04 or earlier. Maybe cards/connectors have come loose during transportation - I've reseated them all. Will try Alt-Fn if it happens again to see whether I can get a terminal to have a look around.

  • benj1
  • Wiki Wizard
  • Offline
  • From: Yorkshire, England
  • Registered: 2009-09-05
  • Posts: 1,084

Re: First few weeks of #!

greetings

ffeuuell wrote:

Forum Registration ::-
a) Give email address twice
- I suppose this is because you want to test that copy&paste is working properly ?? [sarcasm]
b) Password blobs
- Please consider an option to show password characters while they are being typed. Hiding passwords forces users to type very slowly and carefully. That makes it easy for bad guys to see your password by looking at your fingers on the keyboard, instead of looking at your screen.
There is a recent website or an application (perhaps in this very CrunchBang) that has such an option. I was AMAZED at what a relief it was to be able to see my password as I type it. I touch-type: just imagine what a difference it would make to people who have physical difficulty with typing.

i think the idea of putting your email address twice is the same idea as putting your password in twice

Suggestion : how about an introductory getting-started page, giving a quick summary of differences from standard Ubuntu? A single paragraph description of each utility/application; what can be found in each section of the menus; and so on. A single place would be handier than having to look in all those help/man pages separately. After some weeks I still have not looked at what half the menu items are for.

theres is the wiki, ish... its in the process of being improved.

I have not noticed this is faster than Gnome+Nautilus. Maybe it is one of those things you only notice if you go back and find it slower.

you must have a faster computer than i do smile

Pity that "build-essential" and "linux-headers" packages are not part of the standard distro, considering #! is supposed to be for more advanced users.

true, but then you could argue that more advanced users would know how to install apps, plus it gives you the choice of whether you want to install them or not.

Two things annoy me about the default file manager PCManFM ::-
1) stupid nag "Do you really want to delete?" without any way to turn off
- all this does is to train the user in the habit of automatically clicking "Yes", while being very irritating.
2) does not use Trash (so why is there a .Trash directory?)

yeah this is the one of the major annoyances on pcmanfm.

Scroll-wheel to flip between virtual desktops is irritating (I have one of those free-wheeling ones) because it only triggers when cursor is outside a window on the desktop. Didn't know what the hell was happening, the first time.

have a look in ~/.config/openbox/rc.xml you should be able to remove the key bindings there

- - - - - - - - Wiki Pages - - - - - - -
#! install guide           *autostart programs, modify the menu & keybindings
configuring Conky       *installing scripts
  • Registered: 2009-10-01
  • Posts: 501

Re: First few weeks of #!

that mousewheel desktop switching is annyoing, true. but I don't know wich entry to change in rc.xml.

is it this? hould I just comment it out or delete it?

 <context name="Desktop">
      <mousebind button="Up" action="Click">
        <action name="DesktopPrevious"/>
      </mousebind>
      <mousebind button="Down" action="Click">
        <action name="DesktopNext"/>
      </mousebind>
eee701/4gb/512ram
  • benj1
  • Wiki Wizard
  • Offline
  • From: Yorkshire, England
  • Registered: 2009-09-05
  • Posts: 1,084

Re: First few weeks of #!

saneks wrote:

that mousewheel desktop switching is annyoing, true. but I don't know wich entry to change in rc.xml.

is it this? hould I just comment it out or delete it?

 <context name="Desktop">
      <mousebind button="Up" action="Click">
        <action name="DesktopPrevious"/>
      </mousebind>
      <mousebind button="Down" action="Click">
        <action name="DesktopNext"/>
      </mousebind>

yes it'll either be that or the ones following (i assume theyre for different scroll wheel implementations, or just literally for ctrl/alt scroll combos)
just use html comments
<!--  and  -->
to comment it out

Last edited by benj1 (2009-11-20 15:38:39)

- - - - - - - - Wiki Pages - - - - - - -
#! install guide           *autostart programs, modify the menu & keybindings
configuring Conky       *installing scripts
  • Registered: 2009-11-19
  • Posts: 5

Re: First few weeks of #!

benj1 wrote :
i think the idea of putting your email address twice is the same idea as putting your password in twice

You mean you agree it is equally stupid?

(about build-essential)
true, but then you could argue that more advanced users would know how to install apps, plus it gives you the choice of whether you want to install them or not.

True, but following that line of reasoning argues that they should skip #! and go directly to Ubuntu minimal. Or, even more advanced/minimal is Gentoo.

----

Postscript
It was my lucky day. Shortly after posting, I came back to the computer to find it frozen. I had left an empty desktop with only Conky running (plus all those tens of services that every distro thinks might be essential).
Alt-Fn did not work. Neither Numlock nor Capslock lights were flashing.
So no idea what caused the freeze.

I guess the only thing is to uninstall things one by one until the freezing seems to go - but that could take forever. Simpler to try another distro, especially as I have not installed all the apps I want yet.

I see CrunchBang 9.10 mentioned. I may as well try that, directly from here instead of a -hacked- magazine copy.

While I'm at it, I'll ditch Ext4 and go back to Reiserfs - concerns like
  http://www.h-online.com/news/item/Kerne … 40787.html
worry me. Consistent journal but up to 2mins of user data lost? No thanks!

  • benj1
  • Wiki Wizard
  • Offline
  • From: Yorkshire, England
  • Registered: 2009-09-05
  • Posts: 1,084

Re: First few weeks of #!

ffeuuell wrote:

(about build-essential)
true, but then you could argue that more advanced users would know how to install apps, plus it gives you the choice of whether you want to install them or not.

True, but following that line of reasoning argues that they should skip #! and go directly to Ubuntu minimal. Or, even more advanced/minimal is Gentoo.

but then following that line of reasoning, you would only need two types of distro, linux from scratch, and the full debian 6 DVD edition

- - - - - - - - Wiki Pages - - - - - - -
#! install guide           *autostart programs, modify the menu & keybindings
configuring Conky       *installing scripts
  • Registered: 2009-11-19
  • Posts: 5

Re: First few weeks of #!

benj1 wrote:

but then following that line of reasoning, you would only need two types of distro, linux from scratch, and the full debian 6 DVD edition

Yes, that is precisely my point, Oh Wiki Wizard - there is a need for a distro that includes build-essential and linux-headers.

By the way, thanks for the tip about editing rc.xml.

  • Registered: 2008-11-29
  • Posts: 151

Re: First few weeks of #!

Hello ffeuuell!  big_smile

Welcome to #!, interesting feedback and review.

A lot of the defaults (theme, conky, apps, active contrast) is because it's designed to partly imitate http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/post/43568/#p43568

Re: Intro
- I think the Help section of the menu could probably use about four more entries (and rename it to "Help & Tutorial"?)
- Differences versus Ubuntu would be a nice way to start off a welcome page.
- There's the Wiki applications list: http://crunchbanglinux.org/wiki/applications
Suppose a page could made for each section (e.g. Graphics page would be a copy/paste, but include a one-three sentence description for each application.)

Re: Conky
The pain is part of what makes it fun  ; )
Maybe a top ten examples page?  Could've sworn there was a GUI or something to make editing it easier; I must've been mixed up with the GUI for Tint2.

Re: build-essential
Interesting point.  I don't know much on it, but would assume corenominal makes a personal decision based on what he requires them for and how much he thinks others require them.

Re: HashEek
BAM! (just updated and only teasing) tongue

Re: Window resizing / Cursor snapping
- I don't notice any delay, looks instant to me.
- Alt+DragRightClick is an okay alternate to resize a window.
- I think the cursor edge is dependant on the application.  Firefox seems to have a much wider edge at the bottom right than all my other apps.
- Don't think this helps anything you mentioned, but there's Menu > Preferences > Openbox Config > GUI Config Tool > Move and Resize

All the best!

Edit: Does Alt-Fn refer to Ctrl-Alt-F1? [Ctrl-Alt-F7 to return to normal desktop]

Last edited by jobester (2009-11-22 03:14:59)

  • Registered: 2009-11-19
  • Posts: 5

Re: First few weeks of #!

jobester wrote:

Re: Conky
The pain is part of what makes it fun  ; )
Maybe a top ten examples page?  Could've sworn there was a GUI or something to make editing it easier; I must've been mixed up with the GUI for Tint2.

Oh, no. Spare us the GUI. I learned very early that it is far better, easier, quicker and more direct to edit the underlying configs than mess about with half-arsed GUIs.
Some people are colour-blind. Fact is, many programmers - perhaps the majority - are both interface-blind and usability-blind.
You tell them their interface is ugly and has jarring hues. They don't know what you are talking about.
You tell them that the most common, every day activity requires the user to do 10 clicks and drill down 2 separate menus and it would be better as just 1 button click. They look at you as if you were an idiot, "Whaddaya mean? It does the job, dunnit?"

Re: build-essential
Interesting point.  I don't know much on it, but would assume corenominal makes a personal decision based on what he requires them for and how much he thinks others require them.

Obviously it is his decision. Reason I suggested it is that anybody who ever needs to manually compile/build/install any application (i.e. what I think of as an "advance user") is going to need build-essential. The "essential" part of the name is a bit of a clue, to my way of thinking. It would be nice to have it by default.

Does Alt-Fn refer to Ctrl-Alt-F1? [Ctrl-Alt-F7 to return to normal desktop]

Yes, it does, and thank you for the correction. I use it so rarely that I forgot, or perhaps my brain is full.
And double thanks for "Ctrl-Alt-F7". I can never remember how to get out of the wretched terminal screen on the few occasions that I have to use it - I invariably end up re-booting.

Re: Window resizing / Cursor snapping
- I don't notice any delay, looks instant to me.
- Alt+DragRightClick is an okay alternate to resize a window.
- I think the cursor edge is dependant on the application.  Firefox seems to have a much wider edge at the bottom right than all my other apps.

About the delay: I read somewhere that shy introverted types have faster-responding senses; perhaps you are more extroverted than me. Or perhaps I'm too impatient.
Nah, not to do with the application. I use same apps as under Gnome where it was less of a problem. Must be an Openbox thing.

"Alt+DragRightClick" :
well, well, you live and learn. All these years and I never new that.
You are a saviour!
I shall never try to drag an edge again, it will be Alt+R-click every time from now on!
Mega thanks and heaps of kisses ********** (sic), jobester.