• From: The White Mountains
  • Registered: 2010-05-05
  • Posts: 5,655

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

omns wrote:

Overall, I think this type of support would make a nice community project. It will probably happen informally through the forums but it would be nice if a group could organise it in some way when the time comes (perhaps on the wiki).

I tend to agree with the -informally- aspect.

Looking at things as it is now I search #! Forums for something regarding "Statler" Debian and get Ubuntu based answers that don't apply.

ie:
~/.Xdefault - doesn't exist in Statler
/boot/grub/menu.lst - doesn't exist - Grub2 - time to read up on that.

So in time it will get more complex, maybe splitting the "Statler" part of the forum into two, or three, major sub-sections:

Statler-OB
Statler-Xfce
Statler-General

after that comes the "stable", "testing" and "unstable" sub-sections under each of the above sections.

It's actually quite interesting to think that with the change of a "word" in the sources list #! becomes a rolling release.  That won't become a real issue though until Squeeze becomes the "stable" release.

On second thought, it is available now as "unstable" for the strong hearted.

I like the idea of two years of "stability" with Statler after 2 years of 6 month re-installs.  When I first installed #! 9.04 I decided to stay with it until Ubuntu no longer supported 9.04. However #! Debian changed my mind.

Last edited by Sector11 (2010-05-31 18:58:47)

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  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

I've been running Statler Sid for a while on my Dell Mini, no problems at all. smile
I check the Sidux forums for upgrade warnings before doing a dist-upgrade; if they say "no go" I hold off for a few days.
Really Sid is the best option if you prefer a rolling release, IMHO. (Personally I am planning to go Stable on this machine once there is a final CrunchBang release, just having some fun with Sid in the meantime.)

  • Registered: 2010-05-30
  • Posts: 11

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

The point of Dedian is stability and a fool proof packaging system. (.deb) It is almost always using older software, but its amazingly stable. I personally will stick with Stable, I hate it when my computer fails. Besides then I don't have to worry about:"As always with CrunchBang, this release is not recommended for anyone who requires a stable system. Anyone who uses CrunchBang should be comfortable with occasional or even frequent breakage. Remember, CrunchBang Linux could make your computer go CRUNCH! BANG! smile"

  • From: The White Mountains
  • Registered: 2010-05-05
  • Posts: 5,655

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

Looking back from the future, corenominal's words:

Anyone who uses CrunchBang should be comfortable with occasional or even frequent breakage. Remember, CrunchBang Linux could make your computer go CRUNCH! BANG!

just might be tossed on the pile of folk-lore quotes by others, famous or not, like:

"640K ought to be enough for anybody."

- think about it ... my "Palm" has more memory than that and probably your cell phone as well.

Where is the [Any] key?

- has to be right up there with the best of them.

and one I have always liked...

foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools.

With that I'll take the stability of a system over "bleeding edge" that's why I ended up trying Linux in the first place, the "blue screen of death" visited once too often.  While no OS is perfect, with Linux I have not lost a single "byte" -- other than by human error, and CrunchBang has to be the most stable distro I have tried to date, and it just got better with v10 Statler.

And while Debian "stable" might have older software, I'll worry about that when I find that I am using at least 80% of the commands for 75% of the software I do use.  I would bet I'm safe in saying that there are very very few people that use 75% of the commands possible with 5% of the software that they use.

So yea, I'm staying "stable", a few weeks ago I wasn't sure, I am now though after reading some and weighing the pros & cons etc.

Now, to end with something funny, I don't think I was ever this naive, or better, I hope I wasn't:

Login: yes
Password: i dont have one
password is incorrect

Login: yes
Password: incorrect

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  • pvsage
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  • Registered: 2009-10-18
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

Sector11 wrote:

"640K ought to be enough for anybody."

We are all aware that The Bill never actually said this, right?

while ( ! ( succeed = try() ) );
  • From: The White Mountains
  • Registered: 2010-05-05
  • Posts: 5,655

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

pvsage wrote:
Sector11 wrote:

"640K ought to be enough for anybody."

We are all aware that The Bill never actually said this, right?

Yes, I am aware of it, but it is still a "famous" quote moving around even if it is NOT correct. - it is a part of computer folk-lore.  It is why that one is inside quote marks as well as like the rest inside a quote box. big_smile

Last edited by Sector11 (2010-06-01 12:51:24)

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  • Registered: 2010-08-14
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

In my opinion a version based on stable is nice to start with after installation.  Everyone, who is interested in a ,,roling release'', can change the source-list.

Usefull would be wiki-pages for less experienced users to  show, how to do  and a warning about consequences of this change.


Gteetings

Frank

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  • titan
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

I think Crunchbang is in danger of loosing the way forward, Ubuntu, Squeeze, Testing , Sid, recommendations for other distro's repros, third party scripts, mix and match, swap Debian repros  as and when. This sounds like fun but not on a machine you want for reliable stable use.

  • From: Covington, LA
  • Registered: 2010-09-11
  • Posts: 79

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

I agree that there is no need for 3 separate releases, but maybe the options to assign the repos could be written into an installer with the choices correlating to the level of experience in Linux, a potential new user has (i.g. Novice - Stable, Intermediate - Testing or Expert Mode - Sid) with descriptions of what the user to expect from each choice.

This could also set Crunchbang apart from other distos by pioneering this type of installer.

snowpine wrote:

Best thing about Debian IMHO is division into unstable/testing/stable branches, any of which are viable as everyday operating systems (depending on the user of course). I would encourage Corenomial to keep this in mind during development. Changing "testing" to "squeeze" in our sources.list should theoretically result in a seamless conversion to Debian Stable when Squeeze is released (later this year?). Likewise, some brave users might wish to change their sources to Unstable and live on the bleeding edge.

I do not feel Statler needs 3 separate releases (it is easy to convert by editing your sources), nor do I want to "fork" Philip's valuable time. smile But I do think it would be a cool community effort for timid Stableheads and brave Unstablenauts. Here is an example of what I'm talking about: http://antix.freeforums.org/sid-upgraders-f5.html

All we need now is muppet names... I vote Bunsen for Testing and Beaker for Unstable!

Last edited by nolatux (2010-09-17 22:03:46)

Currently running "Statler" - Openbox edition.
  • rich
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

snowpine wrote:

I've been running Statler Sid for a while on my Dell Mini, no problems at all. smile
I check the Sidux forums for upgrade warnings before doing a dist-upgrade; if they say "no go" I hold off for a few days.
Really Sid is the best option if you prefer a rolling release, IMHO. (Personally I am planning to go Stable on this machine once there is a final CrunchBang release, just having some fun with Sid in the meantime.)

That's interesting. Only today I was thinking about setting up a Sid Statler on a spare partition. I agree that the sidux forums are awesome for up to date alerts as well as quick fixes when a problem occurs. They get some nice scripts posted as well, smxi etc.

Now that you've said it's relatively ok, I think i might go for it for a bit of fun smile

Last edited by rich (2010-09-18 00:10:44)

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  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

richs-lxh wrote:
snowpine wrote:

I've been running Statler Sid for a while on my Dell Mini, no problems at all. smile
I check the Sidux forums for upgrade warnings before doing a dist-upgrade; if they say "no go" I hold off for a few days.
Really Sid is the best option if you prefer a rolling release, IMHO. (Personally I am planning to go Stable on this machine once there is a final CrunchBang release, just having some fun with Sid in the meantime.)

That's interesting. Only today I was thinking about setting up a Sid Statler on a spare partition. I agree that the sidux forums are awesome for up to date alerts as well as quick fixes when a problem occurs. They get some nice scripts posted as well, smxi etc.

Now that you've said it's relatively ok, I think i might go for it for a bit of fun smile


IMHO Sid is more stable than Testing at the moment, since they are working out some bugs for the final Squeeze release. I like smxi too (h2 knows his stuff); can't go wrong there. Have fun! smile

  • rich
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

snowpine wrote:

I like smxi too (h2 knows his stuff); can't go wrong there.

Yeah, shame the sidux devs didn't feel the same way a while back. There was a little bit of silliness which in my opinion didn't do sidux any favours. Luckily h2 still maintained the scripts.

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  • rich
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

Regarding the Crunchbang direction:

I'm biased, but I vote for going Debian and leaving Ubuntu behind. This would leave a Stable release "Statler" when Squeeze goes Stable, A Crunchbang [codename] based on testing, and then adventurous users could just edit their sources list to sid/unstable for a rolling release.

The benefits i see (as others have pointed out):
1. Less confusion on the forums for new users between Ubuntu and Debian support/howto guides.
2. Only two main forum sections needed for Stable and Testing. (+ maybe a community sid section?)
3. Unlike the Ubuntu 6-monthly release schedule (which is timed to keep in line with the Gnome release schedule, which Crunchbang doesn't use anyway), Crunchbang would follow the Debian release timescale and we will have a stable distro for a far longer period. @corenominal Less work for you ;-)

I think Ubuntu is only good for Cutting-Edge and Gnome. Whereas Crunchbang is an Openbox + Xfce based release and we can choose to be as stable or cutting edge as we like just by editing our sources.list.

Practically every distro I know of has somebody who has copied the Crunchbang desktop/style. That's because it has something special. A winning combination that no other distro has managed to achieve. Stick that on top of a stable Debian and you have a rock-solid distro that will allow you to do practically anything you want on most hardware.

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  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

I predict your wish will come true. smile

  • rich
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

snowpine wrote:

I predict your wish will come true. smile

It would be nice, but i'm just a user, not the head-dev smile

To be honest, i'm a crunchbanger no matter how it goes, (as long as it doesn't go back to Ubuntu-only lol!), even my Debian work laptop got the CB makeover. big_smile

| ultimate crunchbang howto everything | debianandi | g+ |
  • From: Covington, LA
  • Registered: 2010-09-11
  • Posts: 79

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

One thing I'm curious/concerned about is getting the most current version of apps (as they are released from the developer) with the least amount of lag time (and/or I may want daily builds of said apps as well), whether I'm using a Debian or Ubuntu based system.

Take Tint2 for example:

In Lucid/Universe, it's at v. 0.7.1-1 and no tint2conf is in the repo.

In Debian Squeeze and Sid, it's at v. 0.9.2 and still no tint2conf)

In Launchpad, it's at v. 0.11 and tin2conf IS in the repo).

So my question is, can apps in the  Launchpad PPA's system be used in a Debian box or will they only work with Ubuntu? One app I use is called Freedc++ (a fork of Linuxdc++) which is an app used directly connect computers together on a public or private hub to share files (I also use some other apps from him and I want his daily builds). The developer has a Launchpad PPA and says it can be used for Debian or Ubuntu.  Do all apps in the LP-PPA work like this?

For most all the major apps I use, I've set up their LP-PPA's in my sources list and given that my main system is Ubuntu based - Xcfe edition, if I start using a Debian system will Iose the capability of using Launchpad?

Currently running "Statler" - Openbox edition.
  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

nolatux wrote:

One thing I'm curious/concerned about is getting the most current version of apps (as they are released from the developer) with the least amount of lag time (and/or I may want daily builds of said apps as well), whether I'm using a Debian or Ubuntu based system.

You can wait for someone else to package it for you, or you can do it yourself. smile

Latest tint2 is always available from http://code.google.com/p/tint2/

Alternately you can use a rolling release distro such as Arch (checked archlinux.com for you and they are at tint2 0.11).

  • From: Covington, LA
  • Registered: 2010-09-11
  • Posts: 79

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

snowpine wrote:
nolatux wrote:

One thing I'm curious/concerned about is getting the most current version of apps (as they are released from the developer) with the least amount of lag time (and/or I may want daily builds of said apps as well), whether I'm using a Debian or Ubuntu based system.

You can wait for someone else to package it for you, or you can do it yourself. smile

Latest tint2 is always available from http://code.google.com/p/tint2/

Alternately you can use a rolling release distro such as Arch (checked archlinux.com for you and they are at tint2 0.11).

Thanks snowpine but my reference to Tint2 was used only to illustrate the differences between the Ubuntu repos, Launchpad and Debian repos.

Last edited by nolatux (2010-09-18 04:44:19)

Currently running "Statler" - Openbox edition.

69 Reply by ZAP

  • ZAP
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

snowpine wrote:

Alternately you can use a rolling release distro such as Arch (checked archlinux.com for you and they are at tint2 0.11).

Just FYI: It's archlinux.org.

  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
  • Posts: 8,647

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

@nolatux - if you must have the latest apps you should either switch distros or get used to compiling. It is "normal" that most distros do not always package the latest versions of apps into their repos.

As for Launchpad specifically, you can download the DEB files and sometimes it will install on Debian just fine. I would not add them to your sources.list however. Mixing Ubuntu and Debian is just asking for trouble.

Note: ** Please read before posting **

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  • From: Covington, LA
  • Registered: 2010-09-11
  • Posts: 79

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

anonymous wrote:

@nolatux - if you must have the latest apps you should either switch distros or get used to compiling. It is "normal" that most distros do not always package the latest versions of apps into their repos.

As for Launchpad specifically, you can download the DEB files and sometimes it will install on Debian just fine. I would not add them to your sources.list however. Mixing Ubuntu and Debian is just asking for trouble.

I think I need to rephrase my question so it clarifies where I'm going with all this, so here goes:

Q: Are app packages in the Launchpad PPA's compatible with a pure Debian distro or can they be used only with a Ubuntu based one?

Last edited by nolatux (2010-09-18 07:47:27)

Currently running "Statler" - Openbox edition.
  • Registered: 2008-12-13
  • Posts: 269

Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

A: They sometimes are compatible, but care needs to be taken when installing them, as they are MADE for Ubuntu (usually, sometimes they would have a Debian version as well), so it's a good idea to install the .debs manually, and not adding the PPAs to your sources.list.

a.

  • titan
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

richs-lxh wrote:

.  They get some nice scripts posted as well, smxi etc.

Must be a few years since you last visited, but sidux is now dead to morph as aptosid and I can guarantee you won't see any mention of h2 scripts.

  • rich
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

titan wrote:
richs-lxh wrote:

.  They get some nice scripts posted as well, smxi etc.

Must be a few years since you last visited, but sidux is now dead to morph as aptosid and I can guarantee you won't see any mention of h2 scripts.

Yeah, it has been a while. Shame about h2 and his scripts, he put a lot into sidux back in the day.

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  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Suggestion: Support stable/unstable conversion

nolatux wrote:

Q: Are app packages in the Launchpad PPA's compatible with a pure Debian distro or can they be used only with a Ubuntu based one?

In my opinion, the best thing about Debian is the incredible Debian repositories of stable, well-tested, pre-compiled application binaries. Personally I would add additional repositories with extreme caution (and I would never mix Debian and Ubuntu repos).

The better option as mentioned above is to compile the app you want directly from its developers (or if they provide a .deb for Debian, even better). You've probably heard the expression "open source" well this is exactly what it means: as a LInux user you have the inalienable right to install exactly the applications you want on your system, direct from the source (and furthermore can modify that source for your needs if necessary). smile