CB for non-techie beginners, are there better alternatives?

Mint or maybe Mandriva, download and test out live versions, if it is something specific they want maybe it can be run through wine. I think it is better to test the live versions before installing, because if there is hardware issues it will cause a lot of unnecessary and easily avoidable frustration by testing the live versions. In short some good ol`distro hoppin.

a plain ubuntu is a good distro to start off with. as long as they are able to use google, i think  they can solve most problem by themselves...

not sure if this applies to the current ubuntu as i've been converted to cb since 8.10

Several CrunchBang forum members have recommended Ubuntu as an alternative OS to M$. 

I vigorously disagree.

If one does not wish to use the very best, and that is Statler, then, the second best in my opinion, is either PCLinuxOS (OpenBox or KDE), or Puppy Linux.  Both are easily installed, and user friendly.

Ubuntu has ONE excellent advantage compared with all other distros, in my opinion, and that is the offer of a choice to the user about passwordless logins DURING THE INSTALLATION.  This feature ought to have been adopted, in my view, by every distro out there.

Ubuntu has ONE terrible feature during the installation:  The user must know, and it is NOT intuitive, that, to install the boot manager, GRUB, on the Linux partition, instead of the default MBR, (absolutely the WRONG choice, especially for those making the transition from M$ products, for whom dual booting capability is essential), one must be clairvoyant and click on the "advanced" icon.  Not only is it poorly labeled, but, it is EASILY overlooked during the installation process.  I have ruined many an MBR with the likes of Mint and Mepis, and Ubuntus, because of that feature.  Still, Ubuntu is superior to Fedora or Suse in that respect, they mangle the partitions.

Overall, taking into consideration all factors for those naive to Linux, PCLinuxOS is my recommended alternative to CrunchBang.  That "Drake" installer is superb, and without peer, in my opinion.  Mandriva is far too slow, for my taste.  Slackware has a wonderful attribute, lacking in all other distros that I have tested, Lilo alone offers (Patrick Volkerding's code, if I remember correctly) the user a chance to specify, during installation, which other operating systems to include in the boot process, and how long to wait prior to booting the default OS.  This is a terrific option, I wish every distro used his code.

For me, CrunchBang is the best distro, despite having a relatively mediocre installer--acceptable, but not particularly brilliant.  Why is Statler the best:

a.  Assuredly, at least in my testing, the fastest distro, at least for OLD computers;  I have not tested it on faster computers.  But, on the slowest of my many obsolete machines, CB is tops, by far.
b.  The only distro, in my experience, to employ VLC media player, right "out of the box", nothing to install, nothing to configure.  VLC is, by far, the best streaming audio player, in my experience.
c.  a terrific user forum, as good, or better than, any other out there, in my opinion.

Hi Banger, just a little note, based on my personal experience, not a fact, or theorem or rule.  Just an opinion.  You wondered WHY folks would feel uncomfortable leaving MSN behind....

I use MSN Messenger, daily, NOT because I like it.  I use it because it is the ONLY messenger, I have tried, which interfaces successfully with my IEEE 1394 Firewire webcam.  So, I can hear the background chatter already:

"So, buy a new web cam you dolt."

Sorry, that's not my modus operandi.

I don't buy new anything.   If the software is good, then it will operate very well with this excellent camera, which displays 800 x 600 easily.  I happen to prefer the specs on my "old" camera, compared with any of the more modern, USB based cameras.

So far, I have struck out in my search for a Linux capability to display data from my IEEE 1394 Camera.  I understand that Coriander is available, and runs under Debian.  I have installed same on another computer and am now struggling to find Coriander, after downloading it using "Synaptic'. 

No luck yet.  I can't even confirm Coriander's existence on the computer....

With MSN Messenger, I don't have anything to install.  Nothing to configure.  Nothing to download, Nothing to change.  I just use it.  That's the fundamental point.  99% of the world is made up of idiots like me, not UNIX gurus.  We just want an OS that recognizes our camera, and functions, correctly, "out of the box".  I am willing to engage in a bit of tomfoolery, to get it to work under Linux, but, when I read about compile this and compile that, and locate this library, and modify this code, and update this driver, and so on, then, I become a tad jaded about the prospects of abandoning MSN....

CAI ENG

New linux users must be divided into 2 categories: techies and non-techies.

Techies can start with any distro out there, because they will investigate how to install it properly, try and try over and over again until they become one these linuxy types, forum trolling and distro-hopping and what not... like most of us around here, imo.

Non-techies need help to do this. Preferably, a techie should install Mint, Ubuntu or whatever is your preference for beginners - although I should say Mint makes things a whole lot easier for noobies - alongside the non-techie person for them to get the feel of it, and then explain patiently what is goin on. And then the bombardment of questions should begin.

I won't comment on the choice of OS for beginners, but:

The usual arrangement for multi-booting is to install Grub on the MBR and have all desired OS's on Grub's menu.lst in the Linux partition. Worked fine for me.

Ubuntu's installer (and Debian's too I think) adds all OS's detected on the drive to Grub's menu, and Grub's timeout before booting the default OS can be adjusted by editing menu.lst - at least in Grub 1. I haven't tried with Grub 2.

Have you tried just running "coriander" from the Run dialog or terminal? Or look under /usr/share/applications and see if it has a launcher?

Windows.

It really does depend on their hardware. When I'm introducing a newbie to Linux I always ask them to fill out my li'l questionnaire (included in this blog post), which includes asking about their hardware.

I think PCLinuxOS is wonderful too, but it balked at my hardware (both the KDE version and the LXDE one most recently). The 'buntus and Mint always ran flawlessly - until Lucid Xubuntu, that is, because for some reason the developers included PulseAudio (simply removing it and putting esound in its place fixed it though). So if they have hardware like mine, I offer them Xubuntu (sans PulseAudio) or Linux Mint Xfce.

But I always insist on the questionnaire before I choose a distro to introduce Linux to a newbie, because I want their experience to be as pleasant and trouble-free as mine was at first.

Still 'buntuing happily,
Robin

Hello, I am an absolute beginner on linux and I can not count the number of hours spent to understand and resolve problems.
After going through ubuntu and other linux I was charmed by CrunchBang and now under Statler, I think I have found the "right"one .
Many install and re-install, a lot of brainstorming, sometime lost and disappointed...
But what a pleasure to use!

nope, not yet.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks John, yes, I am sure that method works fine for most folks.  I am accustomed to employing Ranish to create partitions, and XOSL to manage them.  Therefore, I prefer to have control over where the linux boot loader is placed, and MBR is not an acceptable alternative, for me.

John, the point I was trying to make, is that with Slackware, uniquely, in my experience, one has choice, during the installation, over both default OS, and for that matter, which OS to include in the boot menu, as well as the time to delay, prior to booting the default choice.  Since I seek to manage the partitions using XOSL, rather than GRUB or Lilo, then, I prefer to have but a single selection, "Linux", booted directly, with no delay.

Sorry to disagree with you, emphatically, Andreas. 
Grub is an inferior product.  Grub does not permit the user to assign a time delay, as does Patrick's Lilo bootloader, and it does not permit the user, during the installation, to select ONLY linux to boot.  I don't want Linux interfering with Windows, in any way, shape, or form.  For installation of the bootloader, Slackware, in my experience, is superior to all other Linux distros.  I have no interest in "editing" anything, post-install.  Installer software is intelligently designed, or not....I have encountered scores of GRUB installation programs, which fail to inquire from the user, to which partition GRUB should be installed.

Thanks for your suggestions.
1.  I don't know where the "Run dialog" is found.  I tried typing "Coriander" from /usr/share/applications, and also from /bin, both gave the same result:  segmentation fault due, apparently, judging from the error message, to gtk spin button.
2.  No launcher found.

Interesting comment.  I have had precisely the opposite experience.

PCLinuxOS was for many months, the ONLY distro with which I could achieve a satisfactory installation on my cantankerous old hardware.   I had terrible results with CrunchBang, could not achieve the proper resolution.  PCLinuxOS had no trouble at all.  Then, I blew up my ancient monitor, fooling around with editing a non-existent xorg.conf file, and voila:  With the new monitor, I could see a proper resolution with CrunchBang.  Wonderful.  So that's what everyone else is looking at!  Holy Cow.

Still, it is amazing to me, how could PCLinuxOS have displayed the proper resolution, correctly, on that ancient monitor, which, inspection post-mortem revealed, was missing some pins on the VGA connector, pins found on all modern monitors!!

I wonder if perhaps you have such contemporary gear, that PCLinuxOS can't detect it....?  It certainly is a wonderful OS for old gear.....

I think perhaps I can help you out there.

I have been using WMP , since its debut, and have never been terribly satisfied with it.  Of course, compared to VLC, WMP is inferior in every respect, save one:

WMP plays proprietary windows format videos.  Some financial web sites, for example, require Windows, not Linux, and all the rest of the M$ apparatus, including .NET this and that.  Fidelity is an example of such a broker.  Many banks and government offices in USA require windows, and some demand Internet Explorer, refusing to display the same links if I use my default browser, SeaMonkey.

Real Estate agents, in USA, often send out listings of property for sale.  Good luck trying to access the links, photos, etc, with any browser except IE.

It is also the case, that people start driving a Chevrolet, and then, subsequently, they won't even test drive a Ford or Volkswagen.

I am of the opinion that every operating system requires specific information about the hardware it is designed to manage.  This information, misnamed "drivers", is supplied by the user.  The advantage of Linux is that the bulk of the hardware "drivers" are found on the installation disk, whereas, with Windows, 95, 98, or XP, my most recent M$ acquisition, the "drivers" are found on a separate compact disk, and must be installed, awkwardly, AFTER the installation process is completed with rudimentary, imprecise, default "drivers".  That process of elaborating the hardware specifications for the benefit of the operating system is performed today, transparently, under Linux, i.e. no need for a separate cd,  though, it wasn't always that way!!!  Fifteen years ago, there were plenty of teeth being gnashed, and several cd's required for the installation of even the simplest versions of some popular distros....

CAI ENG

Generally an OS will not have drivers for a piece of hardware newer than itself. I bet Windows 7 would have better support than Windows XP and Ubuntu 10.04 would have better support than 8.04.

Also FYI, to get a driver into Windows I think the manufacturer has to submit them for testing and whatnot.

Today I read a review on Zorin: http://www.zorin-os.webs.com/
It was remarkable positive, really made for people coming from windows 7 or xp.
Another review is more critical: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/zorin.html
I don't like the commercial take they have, but it won't cost you if you don't want a vista look.
Anyway I thought maybe someone would be interested to hear about this 1000th ubuntu flavour.