SEARCH

Enter your search query in the box above ^, or use the forum search tool.

You are not logged in.

#1 2013-02-28 12:17:35

Resident Bot
#! Die Hard
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2012-02-17
Posts: 636

God=Linux don't say negative things

What do you make of all the ever increasing number of linux distros?
I think it's nice to have a few choices but isn't it getting silly?
One of the Big downsides the way I see it is software.
This happens to me quite a bit
I hear of a nice little app
I go the the web site of the maker
he has made versions for about 6 distros (cant expect him/her to make a version for all !!)
none comes close to crunchbang i.e  he had a version for Arch,Suse,Ubuntu but no debian
I download the source and try and build it
there is a glitch somewhere -
I wonder if I should just try downloading the windows version and running it under wine!

If there were less varieties of linux it would often be less frustrating getting software as the maker would have less versions to make for.

Last edited by Resident Bot (2013-03-01 08:56:22)


Troll = not a fanatic
slave of #!  and arch

Offline

Be excellent to each other!

#2 2013-02-28 12:35:22

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

Regardless of whether or not this is the case, it's simply a case of not going to happen, so...
(I don't actually think it is the case, because almost all distros which aren't Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Arch/Suse/Gentoo are a respin of one of the first three, so you don't actually need all that many different packages.)

Offline

#3 2013-02-28 12:40:15

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

Ubuntu but no debian

I noticed sometimes linux versions are marked with the ubuntu logo, probably for discoverability but they work fine with apt-get install name or dpkg -i. I don't remember when was the last time I found some ubuntu-only program I needed and it didn't work, but there were a few occasions. I'm on sid, so ymmv if you run stable, you may meet dependency problems more often.

in general, idk, we can make a linuxpackagingwallofshame.com or something devil

Last edited by zalew (2013-02-28 12:40:29)

Offline

#4 2013-02-28 13:13:23

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

If there were less varieties of linux it would often be less frustrating getting software as the maker would have less versions to make for.

It's an old argument, and it doesn't really hold up. The proper way to do open source development is to publish the code and then let distro developers and/or users make packages. Depending on the distro packaging system, this can be easier or harder. For instance, it's much easier to make AUR or slackbuild packages than it is to create a .deb. The reason being, Arch and Slackware have much less problems with distribution specific patches (Slack doesn't really have any, it keeps everything vanilla). Fedora and openSUSE are somewhere in between, mostly because RPM is the standard package format, and has the greatest level of vendor support. So, any incongruities are the fault of a certain packaging system and policy.

Offline

#5 2013-02-28 13:28:16

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,108

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

I think the proposal to focus on "less varieties" translates as restricting creativity, and goes against the (themselves multiple in nature) ethos of foss. Linux isn't a company that is fragmented and needs giving direction. It is a kernel used by lots of different people who don't care about what other distributions are doing. Such institutional 'problems' like the one you propose I think lead to better systems and applications.

Offline

#6 2013-02-28 13:44:30

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,979

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

Hannah Montana Linux is the One True Linux, and all CrunchBang/Debian/Fedora/Slackware/Arch development should cease *immediately*. wink


/hugged

Offline

#7 2013-02-28 13:57:07

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,956

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

@snowpine:  Live Studio Ostrich laugh

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

I hear of a nice little app
I go the the web site of the maker
he has made versions for about 6 distros (cant expect him/her to make a version for all !!)
none comes close to crunchbang i.e  he had a version for Arch,Suse,Ubuntu but no debian

(emphasis added)
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I believe such developers need to be trolled pestered into moving development upstream, that is, basing their builds on Debian Proper instead of Ubuntu.

Offline

#8 2013-02-28 14:56:01

Resident Bot
#! Die Hard
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2012-02-17
Posts: 636

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

zalew wrote:
ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

Ubuntu but no debian

I noticed sometimes linux versions are marked with the ubuntu logo, probably for discoverability but they work fine with apt-get install name or dpkg -i. I don't remember when was the last time I found some ubuntu-only program I needed and it didn't work, but there were a few occasions. I'm on sid, so ymmv if you run stable, you may meet dependency problems more often.

in general, idk, we can make a linuxpackagingwallofshame.com or something devil

A couple of times lately I have tried adding the Ubuntu ppa given and then apt-get
but it didnt work - always got some message about not being able to find the package.

I am begining to wonder if I should leave a Debain based system the software just seems too old.


Troll = not a fanatic
slave of #!  and arch

Offline

#9 2013-02-28 15:04:42

dkeg
#! Die Hard
From: Mid-Atlantic Grill
Registered: 2011-12-05
Posts: 724

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

uh, okay.  Go for it.

First off adding a ubuntu ppa is a no no.   As mentioned d/l .deb and sudo dpkg -i [pkg].deb

otherwise find an alternative or move off stable to sid


grill it | the rocky path may just be the best path

Offline

#10 2013-02-28 15:32:19

gutterslob
#! Resident Bum
Registered: 2009-11-03
Posts: 3,174

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

Chickpea,

Well, moving to Sid can cure dependency issues, since Ubuntu is (with the exception of LTE releases) based on Debian Unstable, although you might end up pulling more dependencies than necessary. But you still face the problem of binary (in)compatibility. Simple reason for that is (Ubuntu and Debian being distros that ship pre-compiled binaries) quite a few of the packages on Ubuntu (eg: those from Launchpad) are compiled in a root Ubuntu environment, not Debian.

The common "solution" for these cases is to employ pbuilder. Install it from the standard repos.
Then add the Ubuntu PPA, update, and download the source (apt-get source <package>) and use pbuilder to create a .deb (sudo pbuilder build <package>-<package-version>). That way, you're building a binary compatible .deb from the source. Iirc, pbuilder puts the deb in  /var/cache/somewhere. Goes without saying that you should be on Sid to do all this, since you get the most current version of pbuilder and whatever dependencies the pbuilder-created-deb file requests.

Still, I'd generally recommend against adding Ubuntu PPAs on Debian, unless you know what you're doing, which you do not since you asked the question. No shame in that. If you really think you'll be adding a lot of PPAs, then it'll be easier for you to just use Ubuntu, I suppose.


Edit: Couple of links for you to read.

pbuilder man page
http://www.linuxcertif.com/man/8/pbuilder/

Stack Exchange post that does a better job of explaining than I can.
http://askubuntu.com/questions/2319/can … s-in-sidux

Last edited by gutterslob (2013-02-28 15:46:16)


Point & Squirt

Offline

#11 2013-02-28 16:07:25

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

If there were no ways, means and reasons for CrunchBang, we would all be on the Debian forums and IRC being told how stupid we are for not RTFM

Any time I have used anything different than debian, I found it a challenging process to get the packages I wanted built, and one I enjoyed

@snowpine /hug back for Hannah Montana!

@pvsage - Well said (again)

@gutterslob - nice explanation on the pbuild process, well done


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

We do not run from challenges, they become new innovations within VSIDO!

Offline

#12 2013-02-28 16:17:44

lcafiero
The #! Guy
From: Felton, California, USA
Registered: 2011-07-21
Posts: 2,225
Website

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

What do you make of all the ever increasing number of linux distros?

I think it's good. Choice is good. The fact that there's 320-something active Linux and BSD distros out there is a good thing. I take that back: It's a great thing that we have so many distros from which to choose.

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

I think it's nice to have a few choices but isn't it getting silly?

In a word, no.

It's not silly for the same reason that it's not silly that we have more than a "few" choices when it comes to flavors of ice cream, cars to drive, shirts to wear, breakfast cereals to eat, etc. With a few rare exceptions, the "marketplace" determines which distros thrive and which ones wither away, depending on how well or poorly a distro is crafted and maintained (one of these exceptions is Wolvix, a Slack-based distro which dropped off the radar a few years ago -- in fact, this distro had an excellent file manager which is still being used in other Slack-based distros, I think).

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

If there were less varieties of linux it would often be less frustrating getting software as the maker would have less versions to make for.

What pvsage said earlier is right, and to add to it: If a developer is smart (nearly all of them are capable; smart is another thing), he or she will be astute enough to know that their work should be pushed upstream and base their builds on Debian and others. This might require the help of others in the wider FOSS community, of course, but that's how this whole exercise moves forward, right?

On the other hand . . . .

snowpine wrote:

Hannah Montana Linux is the One True Linux, and all CrunchBang/Debian/Fedora/Slackware/Arch development should cease *immediately*.

<sarcasm=friendly_and_hugging>Forget everything I said. No truer words were spoken.</sarcasm> big_smile


Res publica non dominetur | Larry the CrunchBang Guy speaks of the pompetous of CrunchBang

CrunchBang Forum moderator

Offline

#13 2013-02-28 16:33:46

Resident Bot
#! Die Hard
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2012-02-17
Posts: 636

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

o.k. thanks for all the advice/opinions and sorry for my rant/letting off steam! but I find linux a bit frustrating when it comes to software but better for most other things.
I mean a window user who wants to try out software A only needs to choose between downloading the version for
Win8
Win7
Vista
Xp   
the others are out of date now
A linux user  cant find the the program in synaptic (or whatever)
goes to the web site - a few flavours are listed but not his/hers
he/she tries building from source - some dependency isn't met or sometimes he/she knows that the
missing element is on his/her system but somehow it's not seen and the build fails
he/she gives up?!
recent example
image converter

Last edited by Resident Bot (2013-02-28 16:36:52)


Troll = not a fanatic
slave of #!  and arch

Offline

#14 2013-02-28 16:37:26

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

^ And then they ask for help on a forum or IRC and get the necessary information/tools to install ...

Happens every second of every day

Example Converseen solution for building

google > debian + Converseen

First hit


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

We do not run from challenges, they become new innovations within VSIDO!

Offline

#15 2013-02-28 16:39:31

Resident Bot
#! Die Hard
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2012-02-17
Posts: 636

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

Jesus Vastone - if I asked for help everytime this happened the forum would be full of my requests.
What do you mean it already is, blooming cheeek!!
and you think I should just haunt the Mint forums instead?
the advice there was too simple and I already tried that - I expect Mint comes with more standard libraries that I just did'nt have

Last edited by Resident Bot (2013-02-28 16:42:08)


Troll = not a fanatic
slave of #!  and arch

Offline

#16 2013-02-28 16:40:40

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

^ It really all comes down to the correct search parameters...


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

We do not run from challenges, they become new innovations within VSIDO!

Offline

#17 2013-02-28 16:46:35

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

A linux user  cant find the the program in synaptic (or whatever)
goes to the web site - a few flavours are listed but not his/hers
he/she tries building from source - some dependency isn't met or sometimes he/she knows that the
missing element is on his/her system but somehow it's not seen and the build fails
he/she gives up?!
recent example
image converter

I'm still not convinced you're not a troll or an algorithm. I mean, you're doing the exact same thing on at least two forums with this nickname. God only knows how many else you have.

Last edited by el_koraco (2013-02-28 16:47:56)

Offline

#18 2013-02-28 16:49:15

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

^ Or at least someone who gives up way to easily...

Nobody said it would be easy, but it damned sure can be done.. What is wrong with the Mint forums?  Or any for that matter? A solution is a solution


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

We do not run from challenges, they become new innovations within VSIDO!

Offline

#19 2013-02-28 17:01:39

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,549

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

I'm curious which software you are trying to install that is not in the repositories.


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres
Github

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

Offline

#20 2013-02-28 17:19:45

cchhrriiss121212
#! Junkie
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 357

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

I have had this issue a few times, and IMO it is clearly a disadvantage of using debian which seems to be perceived as a server OS by a lot of devs.

Sometimes when new software comes out you won't find a large user base on any of the forums. Last example i recall was with a synth called din which I had to figure out the dependencies for myself when building. I even contacted the dev and asked to put what i found in the readme file but he did not care.

Offline

#21 2013-02-28 17:21:04

anonymous
The Mystery Member
From: Arch Linux Forums
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 9,419

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

What do you make of all the ever increasing number of linux distros?
I think it's nice to have a few choices but isn't it getting silly?

Personally I don't care for having 1000 variations of Ubuntu. Setting up a custom repo and metapackages may be better. However I think having many independent (main) distros like Debian, Arch, Slackware, openSUSE, Red Hat/Fedora, etc would be inevitable.

Most users may not realize it, but there are significant differences between the package managers and repos of all those distros. For example, Arch is known for being bleeding edge and packaging the latest versions of programs rather quickly. Debian (Stable) is known for being stable at the cost of having old package versions. Slackware (OOTB) has no dependency resolution. There are also difference in patches that may be included in packages. Ubuntu is known for having good looking font rendering. Debian or Arch...not so much.

As long as its open-source, there would be no way to consolidate the many distros. People would sooner or later decide to make their distro when they find the current one is not to their liking.

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

If there were less varieties of linux it would often be less frustrating getting software as the maker would have less versions to make for.

Even if you just used the forementioned independent distros, there would still be quite a lot of choices and the developer may or may not make a package. Then you have to consider whether your distro will package it in their repos.

As for building from source, it varies from distro to distro. If you cannot find a prebuilt package, just post on a forum. You may think it annoys people (and depending on the community it may), but if that program is important to you then there is no other way.

Last edited by anonymous (2013-02-28 17:23:03)

Offline

#22 2013-02-28 17:41:49

Resident Bot
#! Die Hard
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2012-02-17
Posts: 636

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

@ el-Koraco  I dont mind folks saying I give up too easily etc tha'ts fair enough but your comment is just silly.

I'm still not convinced you're not a troll or an algorithm. I mean, you're doing the exact same thing on at least two forums with this nickname. God only knows how many else you have.

are you saying that any slightly negative thing said about linux=troll

Last edited by Resident Bot (2013-02-28 17:45:07)


Troll = not a fanatic
slave of #!  and arch

Offline

#23 2013-02-28 18:08:14

zalew
#! Junkie
From: Warsaw, .PL
Registered: 2012-03-28
Posts: 374

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

VastOne wrote:

Any time I have used anything different than debian, I found it a challenging process to get the packages I wanted built

really? how's the situation on gentoo, do you have any experiences with that?

Offline

#24 2013-02-28 22:05:34

el_koraco
#!/loony/bun
From: inside Ed
Registered: 2011-07-25
Posts: 4,749

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

are you saying that any slightly negative thing said about linux=troll

Well, no, as I said, you might also be a piece of code. Like a young Skynet or something.

Offline

Help fund CrunchBang, donate to the project!

#25 2013-02-28 22:29:48

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 962
Website

Re: God=Linux don't say negative things

ChickenPie4Tea wrote:

I mean a window user who wants to try out software A only needs to choose between downloading the version for
.....
he/she tries building from source - some dependency isn't met or sometimes he/she knows that the
missing element is on his/her system but somehow it's not seen and the build fails
....

It's a bit unfair to compare things this way.  You'd likely run into similar issues trying to compile open source applications on windows.  Also, the important thing about the linux ecosystem is becoming a master of what there is.

Are you certain you actually need that application that isn't in the repos?  Maybe theres an alternative that has the same capabilities.  Before you try compiling new software on Debian stable (typically a bad idea for an end-user like myself), ask in the forums about the feature you're looking for.

If you're definitely going to be compiling applications, choose a distro that is compile-friendly, like slackware, arch, or gentoo.  If you read the debian manual, you'll be advised to never do a simple compile, you should build a .deb from the package.  There are lots of reasons for that, but the point is that you're not advised to go willy nilly compiling on Debian, especially if you're not a packager.

So, I think the point is not that there are too many distros to make packages for, but that it's easy to lose focus on mastering your distro of choice, or rather mastering the skill of choosing a distro for your purposes.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB

Copyright © 2012 CrunchBang Linux.
Proudly powered by Debian. Hosted by Linode.
Debian is a registered trademark of Software in the Public Interest, Inc.

Debian Logo