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#26 2013-03-29 00:10:06

snowpine
#!-a-roo
Registered: 2008-11-24
Posts: 2,982

Re: Abiword considered harmful

sohesado wrote:

I don't care for the bugs to be fixed, otherwise I would making this post to the project's mailing list.
I merely criticizing the choice made for CrunchBang (as in, installed by default).

In the time it took you to start this thread, you could have filed the bug report, thereby improving CrunchBang for all of its users. smile


/hugged

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#27 2013-03-29 04:10:46

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,039
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

saneks wrote:

I think (abiword) is good enough to ... to print sth out...

Not even that, in my experience. Open/LibreOffice do a much better job of getting margins/layout right for the printer/page size.

Last edited by johnraff (2013-03-29 04:11:15)


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#28 2013-03-29 05:38:26

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,956

Re: Abiword considered harmful

I can't believe Philip hasn't responded in this thread yet; he and Becky must be on holiday or something.

I continue to wish for a lighter-weight RTF (or even HTML) word processor in the Debian repos (for some reason, Ted has yet to show up there) comparable to WordPad, but as they say, "Wish in one hand..."

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#29 2013-03-29 20:09:43

anshin
Member
Registered: 2013-03-06
Posts: 24

Re: Abiword considered harmful

Iranon wrote:
MartinRF wrote:

LyX maybe?
I am fan but I realise it may be too odd for others.

/Martin

Nice program... but it's a slippery slope.

Why not LyX instead of a word processor -> why not a less dumbed-down fooTeX editor with better access to the source -> why not do it in a civilised general purpose editor -> why don't you simply master the Matrix?

It isn't a slippery slope. The key to minimalism is to balance usability with minimalism.

You aren't going to awaken one morning to discover that you're no longer satisfied with an actual browser and that you require a program (no doubt written in an assembly language), to make http requests, strip out the html, restructure all the text into paragraph form, and display it in less (or your pager of choice).

Last edited by anshin (2013-03-29 20:10:27)

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#30 2013-03-29 20:49:11

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,956

Re: Abiword considered harmful

anshin wrote:

You aren't going to awaken one morning to discover that you're no longer satisfied with an actual browser and that you require a program (no doubt written in an assembly language), to make http requests, strip out the html, restructure all the text into paragraph form, and display it in less (or your pager of choice).

Continuing off-topic...
Actually, people already do this with curl.  (I guess w3m, links, and lynx are too much bloat for some people. roll )

At first I read "your paper of choice," which gave me quite a chuckle.

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#31 2013-03-29 21:19:34

anshin
Member
Registered: 2013-03-06
Posts: 24

Re: Abiword considered harmful

pvsage wrote:
anshin wrote:

You aren't going to awaken one morning to discover that you're no longer satisfied with an actual browser and that you require a program (no doubt written in an assembly language), to make http requests, strip out the html, restructure all the text into paragraph form, and display it in less (or your pager of choice).

Continuing off-topic...
Actually, people already do this with curl.  (I guess w3m, links, and lynx are too much bloat for some people. roll )

At first I read "your paper of choice," which gave me quite a chuckle.

People who actually do this are missing out on probably 80+% of the web. It isn't appropriately usable and, thus, isn't very rational. It's just strange.

That is funny. I was originally going to leave off the part about less, but I thought people might think I meant those call notification things.

On a note more related to the topic, I've never been a fan of either Abiword or LibreOffice.

I prefer something much lighter, but I don't know of anything like that. I actually have found myself using vim, but I'm not remotely pleased with that as a solution. I don't actually have any suggestion for alternatives, and I suppose most people are looking for an Office alternative anyway.

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#32 2013-03-29 22:28:26

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: Abiword considered harmful

@anshin - I just use vim, and write in LaTeX if it's an essay for university which needs typesetting, and I'm very happy with that as my solution. Then again, I'm probably atypical in this regard.

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#33 2013-03-30 00:20:18

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 965
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

libreoffice writer doesn't HAVE to be that heavy... If you have 1+gb of RAM then I don't think it's a big deal, and supposedly it can be run without java? I dunno how much if a difference that would really make.

In terms of features/toolbars, I typically disable almost everything except for the writing pane and the formatting toolbar, which provides a very wordpad-esque environment.

You can add

libreoffice --quickstart

to your autostart.sh.

You can also manage the memory use in the preferences, i.e. fewer steps of undo, smaller cache, etc.

Last edited by orionthehunter (2013-03-30 00:27:43)

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#34 2013-03-30 03:35:32

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,039
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

^exactly. It's really not such a big deal, and at least it works.

(off-topic 'curl -s url | html2text | less' )


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--------------------
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#35 2013-03-30 12:36:22

Microcord
#! Member
Registered: 2011-03-13
Posts: 65

Re: Abiword considered harmful

I'll second the opinion that Abiword is terrible for Japanese. I often have to read stuff in Japanese and fairly often have to write it too, and this is sufficient reason for me to install LibreOffice. Then I uninstall Abiword. Of course uninstalling it takes mere seconds, but all of this doesn't fully square with my notion of a lightweight distro.

anshin wrote:

On a note more related to the topic, I've never been a fan of either Abiword or LibreOffice.

I prefer something much lighter, but I don't know of anything like that. I actually have found myself using vim, but I'm not remotely pleased with that as a solution. I don't actually have any suggestion for alternatives, and I suppose most people are looking for an Office alternative anyway.

Agreed. I've always been intending to investigate LyX, always been too lazy/busy.

The great love of my typing life was XyWrite. If it handled Unicode, I'd still use it now. (Though I'd still need LibreOffice in order to read stuff that other people write.)

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#36 2013-03-31 00:47:26

anshin
Member
Registered: 2013-03-06
Posts: 24

Re: Abiword considered harmful

joek wrote:

@anshin - I just use vim, and write in LaTeX if it's an essay for university which needs typesetting, and I'm very happy with that as my solution. Then again, I'm probably atypical in this regard.

I don't have time to learn LaTeX right now. While I'm interested in the future, I still view using straight vim to be a pain.

Writing is an endeavor that should involve instant feedback. I should be able to see the end-result as I type-- probably with some sort of lint tool that will wait until the syntax is correct.

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#37 2013-03-31 11:21:51

DebianJoe
#! Code Whisperer
From: The Bleeding Edge
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 1,207
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

Abiword appears to be an attempt at reaching a middle-ground, IMHO.  Although there are probably better/different choices available, your needs will always be reflected in what software you think is perfect.  I can't speak for corenominal, but I would have had a hard time figuring out what medium-level word processor to package with the distro.  There's always going to be a need for more integrated systems (and there's a comfortable little installer for Libre-O for those users), and then there are going to be the minimalists who feel that everything can be done in vim.  They're both valid options, albeit not for everyone.

Rather than looking on it from a negative perspective (ie: "Abiword is the suck...I hate it!"), what are better options with similar functionality around the same size that more users would prefer?

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#38 2013-03-31 17:07:53

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: Abiword considered harmful

anshin wrote:
joek wrote:

@anshin - I just use vim, and write in LaTeX if it's an essay for university which needs typesetting, and I'm very happy with that as my solution. Then again, I'm probably atypical in this regard.

I don't have time to learn LaTeX right now. While I'm interested in the future, I still view using straight vim to be a pain.

Writing is an endeavor that should involve instant feedback. I should be able to see the end-result as I type-- probably with some sort of lint tool that will wait until the syntax is correct.

Yeah, but while I'm writing I don't give a damn what the formatting looks like; I just care about the actual words. I can see whether it looks pretty enough later after I've compiled the LaTeX.

(My brother swears by Gummi -- available in repos Wheezy and Sid -- which is a two panel editor, one side giving a live preview of what the typeset work will look like)

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#39 2013-04-02 05:23:53

johnraff
nullglob
From: Nagoya, Japan
Registered: 2009-01-07
Posts: 4,039
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

DebianJoe wrote:

Abiword appears to be an attempt at reaching a middle-ground, IMHO.

Agreed. It just doesn't seem too successful an attempt.

...I can't speak for corenominal, but I would have had a hard time figuring out what medium-level word processor to package with the distro....what are better options with similar functionality around the same size that more users would prefer?

There don't seem to be any. sad


John
--------------------
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#40 2013-04-02 05:35:12

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,956

Re: Abiword considered harmful

There seems to be Ted, but the binary currently available isn't compatible with Wheezy...keep forgetting to try compiling it against Wheezy...
...has to be some reason why it hasn't been available in Debian since Sarge...

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#41 2013-04-02 06:20:19

orionthehunter
#! Constellation
From: Japan
Registered: 2011-04-09
Posts: 965
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

There's google docs... as long as you have an internet connection it is essentially like a more functional abiword.

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#42 2013-04-02 12:31:04

cortman
#! CrunchBanger
From: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Registered: 2012-03-15
Posts: 128

Re: Abiword considered harmful

orionthehunter wrote:

There's google docs... as long as you have an internet connection it is essentially like a more functional abiword.

...but very, very few of us are blanketed with free internet everywhere we go or need to use the computer. I live in rural southern-midwestern USA and for me Google Docs is out of the question. I don't have internet (or at least reliable internet) 80% of the places I use my computer, and I don't want to use up precious tethering bandwidth just to edit a document I could do offline.
I wish people would stop proposing that Google Docs or MS 365 or any other "cloud" based software is the end all replacement for local programs.
Not saying that's what you're doing @orionthehunter, it's just what people in general keep insisting.


Copy.com offers 15 GB free cloud storage plus 5 GB extra for both of us when you use my my referral link. smile

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#43 2013-04-02 12:49:51

dura
Bloated Gimp
From: interzone
Registered: 2012-09-15
Posts: 2,108

Re: Abiword considered harmful

Google docs works for me, but then I live in the biggest city in Europe. I use interwebz at home, work, and when away. It is bountiful and a plenty.

Googledrive has so far negated the worry of corrupted documents.

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#44 2013-04-02 18:14:39

doxanthropos
#! Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2011-03-30
Posts: 69

Re: Abiword considered harmful

Into the land of the Strange and Alien Text-Processors

Inspired by this discussion, I just installed focuswriter (from Debian-Repo) and siag-Office (that needed some compiling). FW brings a nice plus in writing in a distraction free mode, while the siag-textprocessor "Pathetic Writer" seems to be just a small writing app like Abiword, without any special features (aside probably being scriptable with Scheme). Both provide rtf and FW also saves as Open-Office-Document. Maybe one of these is something for the Abiword-Refugees.
One other programm, that might be of interest in search of a lightweight text-processor might be GNU TeXmacs. It is also Scheme-scriptable and a strange mix out of LaTeX and Emacs.

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#45 2013-04-12 21:44:27

corenominal
WRONG
From: Lincoln, UK
Registered: 2008-11-20
Posts: 5,109
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

pvsage wrote:

I suppose it is adequate for corenominal's needs, but seriously, if it is such a constant source of consternation for other users, maybe it should be left out of the ISO.

I would be inclined to agree. I spend the majority of my day inside my text editor, terminal and web browser, I cannot recall the last time I opened Abiword, or gnumeric. Maybe it is time to drop it/them from the image.

(Hey, I wonder if that would be enough to get the image down below 700MB! cool )

I doubt it, but it will be interesting to see how much difference it makes.


Ex-developer of #! CrunchBang. Follow me on Twitter smile

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#46 2013-04-12 23:45:25

damo
#! gimpbanger
From: N51.5 W002.8 (mostly)
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 5,279

Re: Abiword considered harmful

corenominal wrote:

...I cannot recall the last time I opened Abiword, or gnumeric. Maybe it is time to drop it/them from the image.

+1

...but then I'd have to edit my post-install script which removes them both, along with other stuff I don't want smile


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#47 2013-04-13 19:39:11

vlax
#! CrunchBanger
From: Alcatraz
Registered: 2012-12-25
Posts: 101
Website

Re: Abiword considered harmful

pvsage wrote:

There seems to be Ted, but the binary currently available isn't compatible with Wheezy...keep forgetting to try compiling it against Wheezy...
...has to be some reason why it hasn't been available in Debian since Sarge...

i installed ted-2.23-i386.deb (from http://www.nllgg.nl/ted/ ) on my  #! Waldorf, and it works fine


'_[=]_'

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#48 2013-04-23 20:47:45

migglemo
Member
Registered: 2013-03-27
Posts: 10

Re: Abiword considered harmful

Was looking for a word processor that fits my minimalism. Sort of hard to find. Abiword is actually huge from my point of view. I think I've settled on focuswriter. It's pretty nice (and pretty) and very small. Ted was my other option, but I didn't want to install outside the repositories if I didn't have to. Focuswriter seems to have precluded it.

I think focuswriter seems to fit in really well with my setup. Recently went back to straight Debian so I could build from ground up, personalize it and start with unstable. Installed base system, upgraded to unstable. Going minimal with fluxbox (even smaller than openbox), ranger, urxvt-unicode-lite, mupdf, feh, cli mplayer. No display manager (login with inittab). Using Iceape because it's smaller than the other 'normal' browsers. Great. Love fluxbox's window tabs. These 8 programs are quite a combo.

Crunchbang probably shouldn't include Abiword by default. Give an option in cb-welcome to install either Abiword or Libreoffice, or neither of course.

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#49 2013-04-23 22:14:53

douglas
#! CrunchBanger
From: Dallas, Texas
Registered: 2011-01-09
Posts: 230

Re: Abiword considered harmful

I haven't used a lot, but never had any problems.  Are you trying to open Abiword docs or MS Word docs?  I would hope Abiword docs work well.

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#50 2013-04-24 02:30:29

codingman
#! Junkie
From: Darkstar
Registered: 2013-03-22
Posts: 356

Re: Abiword considered harmful

SNORE!

When is this thread gonna die? I think the subject has kind of gotten out of hand.
In my opinion, dropping AbiWord isn't a good idea, because it has the function of a very basic writer if you don't have internet access in order to get one.


U iz not goin to getz an anzer frm me if u tip lik dis  mad

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