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#1 2013-05-24 04:42:26

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,943

A Policeman's Lot

(If any of my fellow moderators feels this should be moved to CrunchBang Talk or Off Topic / General Chat, please feel free to do so.)

It appears that tempers, like seasonal allergies, are beginning to flare up again here, as they have the past few years; seems this happens about the same time every year in late spring.  I'm mostly posting this because I want my position on moderating to be perfectly clear to everybody in the forum.

When a felon's not engaged in his employment
Or maturing his felonious little plan
His capacity for innocent enjoyment
Is just as great as any honest man
Our feelings we with difficulty smother
When constabulary duties to be done
Taking one consideration with another
A policeman's lot is not a happy one

I believe I can speak for all the other moderators, as well as corenominal and bobobex, when I say that we take no pleasure in closing threads or imposing bans; however, when something happens that threatens our community, we will take whatever measures are necessary to protect the forum.

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#2 2013-05-24 05:12:38

VastOne
#! Ranger
From: V-Ger
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 10,165
Website

Re: A Policeman's Lot

^ Well stated and eloquently for me...

It has never been a chore to moderate, but sometimes extreme patience is required


VSIDO | Words That Build Or Destroy

We do not run from challenges, they become new innovations within VSIDO!

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#3 2013-05-24 09:46:43

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,943

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Thanks VastOne.  To tell the truth, I actually started to post this about three times over the past couple days, but the right words failed me until, for no reasonable explanation, Pirates of Penzance just happened to drift into my mind.  "When a felon's not engaged in his employment" sums it up better than I could.  (I just hope the rest of the forum doesn't see us as bumbling fools like the police in the operetta!)

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#4 2013-05-24 10:11:02

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,534

Re: A Policeman's Lot

pvsage wrote:

I just hope the rest of the forum doesn't see us as bumbling fools like the police in the operetta!

Don't worry, you mods have always seemed strange to me devil


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres
Github

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#5 2013-05-24 10:15:35

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,943

Re: A Policeman's Lot

^ "Strange" I'm fine with; one can be both strange and competent. monkey

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#6 2013-05-24 10:24:21

Unia
#! Octo-portal-pussy
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-17
Posts: 4,534

Re: A Policeman's Lot

pvsage wrote:

^ "Strange" I'm fine with; one can be both strange and competent. monkey

Yes I pick my words wisely  lol


If you can't sit by a cozy fire with your code in hand enjoying its simplicity and clarity, it needs more work. --Carlos Torres
Github

I am a #! forum moderator. Feel free to send me a PM with any question you have!

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#7 2013-05-24 11:44:05

fatmac
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-11-14
Posts: 1,948

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Personally, I appreciate your giving time to do everything you mods do on behalf of the rest of us, so thanks.


Linux since 1999
Currently:  AntiX, & Crunchbang.
A good general beginners book for Linux :- http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
A good Debian read :- http://debian-handbook.info/get/now/

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#8 2013-05-24 12:02:43

joek
#! Junkie
Registered: 2011-09-06
Posts: 497

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Ah, Pirates.  Reminds me of Latin lessons in school.

"Carthago delenda est. Verb?"
"Est. No, 'delenda est'."
"Which is?"
"A gerund?"
"Gerundive. Which gerundive?"
*blank faces*
"Gerundive of obligation. Altogether now, children:
'When constabulary duty's to be done - to be done'
'A policeman's lot is not a happy one - happy one.'"

Last edited by joek (2013-05-24 12:03:08)

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#9 2013-09-10 04:57:26

bleach
#! Member
Registered: 2013-08-09
Posts: 98

Re: A Policeman's Lot

teach a criminal and you only teach them to be better criminals. Sometimes punishment is the only course of action.

Last edited by bleach (2013-09-10 04:58:11)


obstacles are only in your mind. how you deal with them is what "matters".

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#10 2013-09-11 10:59:21

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: A Policeman's Lot

bleach wrote:

teach a criminal and you only teach them to be better criminals. Sometimes punishment is the only course of action.

It`s not happening here, but in other forums I have experienced that banning users makes the forums even worse, because that may start regular wars between the banned members and the mods, and it`s impossible to actually ban those that really needs to be banned. They`re popping up again in a few minutes with a new nick and behaving even worse than before they got banned.


- apt-mark hold account

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#11 2013-09-11 14:34:00

pvsage
Internal Affairs
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2009-10-18
Posts: 13,943

Re: A Policeman's Lot

It's happened here once, ew.  Fortunately, the troll in question was uncreative with his new username (perhaps his intent was to prove that it was he and our attempt to ban him had failed) and we were able to get rid of him again almost immediately.  Also, I understand corenominal has more draconian means of banning trolls at his disposal than the usual username & IP blocking that the mods use.

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#12 2013-09-11 23:31:00

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: A Policeman's Lot

pvsage wrote:

It's happened here once, ew.  Fortunately, the troll in question was uncreative with his new username (perhaps his intent was to prove that it was he and our attempt to ban him had failed) and we were able to get rid of him again almost immediately.  Also, I understand corenominal has more draconian means of banning trolls at his disposal than the usual username & IP blocking that the mods use.

Our troll wasn`t stopped by anything. Not even by being refused by every ISP. Then he just started posting from librarys and internet-cafe`s. I will not go into more details, because one thing is sure, I don`t want to attract any attention from elements that could be interested in such topics. One thing is sure, it isn`t relevant for linux, except perhaps in the context of a security aspect. But there really isn`t any way to successfully block/ban someone with the skill and obsession to bypass those things, except locking them in somewhere without internet-connection and throw away the key...


- apt-mark hold account

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#13 2013-09-11 23:49:18

bleach
#! Member
Registered: 2013-08-09
Posts: 98

Re: A Policeman's Lot

that is a dedicated troll, there must be some real mental issue there outside the normal trolls ive ever seen.

the problem with ip and such is that it can ban normal users who may use libraries and internete cafe's that have no internet. sometimes I wish there was the proverbial reach through the phone and slap them to give them a sence of reality.

Last edited by bleach (2013-09-11 23:51:40)


obstacles are only in your mind. how you deal with them is what "matters".

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#14 2013-09-12 00:00:25

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: A Policeman's Lot

It`s the kind of troll that`s obsessed by conspiration-theories and uses any means to spread his/her propaganda or delusions. They may suffer from schizophrenia, but they may also just be promoting dispicable ideologies...


- apt-mark hold account

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#15 2013-09-12 00:40:47

Linuxephus™
Banned
From: Reality Check 101.
Registered: 2013-09-11
Posts: 158

Re: A Policeman's Lot

I come from a Community of Ethical Hackers as a former Community Manager (read as Community Leader over Staff Members) numbering plus 40,000 Members and on occasion there were numerous Spammers/Trolls and even Leechers in general that proved to be short lived problems that were dealt with consecutively merely by Revoking every new account registered and new IP Address used. General rule of thumb, after so many account and IP Revokes, the individual in question grows weary in running into the same repeated action on the merit of knowing that no words will be wasted upon them with the absolute certainty of said accounts and IP's being Revoked.
Be it 10, 100, or a 1,000.
The single most important action remains the same...Revocation as many times as it takes.
This instills in the abuser the Community's Will that such is a zero tolerance policy.

The worst case I myself dealt with personally was 37 accounts and IP Addresses Revoked before the individual realized that his IP Adresses blocks within his region are finite.
It merely comes to a situation of Will Power.
Revoked means Revoked, no matter how many times the same action must be repeated for the individual to realize it's a No Win Situation.

Regarding the potential for banning an IP Address that an innocent Member/New Registree might be assigned...easily rectified by removing the IP Address that was previously blocked with a quick Email notification of the same.


-Evolution Is Merely God's Way Of Performing An Upgrade.-
-Linux: Guerrilla UNIX Development...Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.-
-Linux: The Operating System With A C.L.U.E...Command Line User Environment.-

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#16 2013-09-12 01:09:35

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,728

Re: A Policeman's Lot

If you're evil enough, there are fates worse than banning.  devil  Nothing destructive, just annoying.

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#17 2013-09-12 01:16:42

Linuxephus™
Banned
From: Reality Check 101.
Registered: 2013-09-11
Posts: 158

Re: A Policeman's Lot

chillicampari wrote:

If you're evil enough, there are fates worse than banning.  devil  Nothing destructive, just annoying.

Ah, how true that is indeed.
Fortunately for me at least I prefer to remain Ethical despite having the applicable knowledge of making such "annoyances" even to the point of being destructive.

Meanwhile, in related news, I shall refrain from digressing any further off topic, though in this Community I get the feeling such is not too much of a problem so long as it's kept within reason.


-Evolution Is Merely God's Way Of Performing An Upgrade.-
-Linux: Guerrilla UNIX Development...Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.-
-Linux: The Operating System With A C.L.U.E...Command Line User Environment.-

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#18 2013-09-12 01:32:22

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,728

Re: A Policeman's Lot

It's server side, not client, so you'd probably be good as far as ethics go. Are you familiar with Yelp? If not, check out what "Yelpmo" (edit- a.k.a. "Yitmo") is. Same concept.

I *think* we're still on topic, pvsage or another mod'll let us know if we stray too far off track.

Last edited by chillicampari (2013-09-12 08:13:58)

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#19 2013-09-12 02:15:51

Linuxephus™
Banned
From: Reality Check 101.
Registered: 2013-09-11
Posts: 158

Re: A Policeman's Lot

chillicampari:
{It's server side, not client, so you'd probably be good as far as ethics go. Are you familiar with Yelp? If not, check out what "Yelpmo" is. Same concept.

I *think* we're still on topic, pvsage or another mod'll let us know if we stray too far off track.}
-->>Never heard of "Yelpmo" (similar to an IRC "quiet banning" --unable to post, comment, and such-- ) until you mentioned it here.
I can however be sure that would be quite annoying indeed in a very amusing manner.
And I'm quite sure you make no mention of "yelp.mo" packaging for Debian.
Thus I'll assume the former versus the latter.

Edit: Craptastic!
You mean Suspended Posting Privileges!!
That was always my first line of Warning before proceeding to more direct means, dictated by the merits of the individual's actions.


-Evolution Is Merely God's Way Of Performing An Upgrade.-
-Linux: Guerrilla UNIX Development...Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.-
-Linux: The Operating System With A C.L.U.E...Command Line User Environment.-

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#20 2013-09-12 02:23:29

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,728

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Yep! I meant Yelp, the website.

You can still post, you just won't be seen. Someone I know found a loophole after ending up in Yelpmo so she could still respond to Talk threads via a different section of the site, which was pretty fun until they patched that up.

Last edited by chillicampari (2013-09-12 02:23:56)

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#21 2013-09-12 02:33:36

Linuxephus™
Banned
From: Reality Check 101.
Registered: 2013-09-11
Posts: 158

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Then surely someone should Unpatch the Patched Patching would be the only logical criteria to act upon! big_smile

P.S.-I had no idea Yelp or "Yelpmo" was even a website until you mentioned it here.
Indeed it is a long day when even the smallest details escape my usually sharp mind.
I stand corrected yet again.
Resolved.


-Evolution Is Merely God's Way Of Performing An Upgrade.-
-Linux: Guerrilla UNIX Development...Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.-
-Linux: The Operating System With A C.L.U.E...Command Line User Environment.-

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#22 2013-09-12 02:41:15

chillicampari
Pinball Wizard
Registered: 2009-10-09
Posts: 2,728

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Nah- that was me being unclear (Yelp.com as opposed to Yelp, the application). And someone at Yelp should unpatch the Yelp Talk Yitmo loophole. :-p

Edit- I've been referring to it mostly as "Yelpmo" in the thread but it's actually better known as "Yitmo".

Last edited by chillicampari (2013-09-12 08:21:01)

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#23 2013-09-12 02:58:43

bleach
#! Member
Registered: 2013-08-09
Posts: 98

Re: A Policeman's Lot

that is a nice feature to have and is on a lot of chat like clients. I play  pokerth sometimes and on some games some players can get spammy or trolish and it has the silence button for player which is nice.


obstacles are only in your mind. how you deal with them is what "matters".

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#24 2013-09-12 11:19:30

ew
#! Die Hard
Registered: 2012-09-27
Posts: 1,975

Re: A Policeman's Lot

Linuxephus™ wrote:

I come from a Community of Ethical Hackers as a former Community Manager (read as Community Leader over Staff Members) numbering plus 40,000 Members and on occasion there were numerous Spammers/Trolls and even Leechers in general that proved to be short lived problems that were dealt with consecutively merely by Revoking every new account registered and new IP Address used. General rule of thumb, after so many account and IP Revokes, the individual in question grows weary in running into the same repeated action on the merit of knowing that no words will be wasted upon them with the absolute certainty of said accounts and IP's being Revoked.
Be it 10, 100, or a 1,000.
The single most important action remains the same...Revocation as many times as it takes.
This instills in the abuser the Community's Will that such is a zero tolerance policy.

The worst case I myself dealt with personally was 37 accounts and IP Addresses Revoked before the individual realized that his IP Adresses blocks within his region are finite.
It merely comes to a situation of Will Power.
Revoked means Revoked, no matter how many times the same action must be repeated for the individual to realize it's a No Win Situation.

Regarding the potential for banning an IP Address that an innocent Member/New Registree might be assigned...easily rectified by removing the IP Address that was previously blocked with a quick Email notification of the same.

Blocking of IP-adresses is pointless against the worst cases. And most forums have just a few mods that do this on their free-time, and a really obsessed person will have a lot more patience than the mod-theme. They got to go to work, and they got to sleep, the troll in most cases doesn`t have to do any of this... The nature of our forum was also such that there had to be the possibilty to post anonymously, as many topics were so sensitive and even dangerous, that very few would dare to share their opinion if they couldn`t have done it anonymously. Making it mandatory to have a registered account almost killed the activity, and that`s not good for a startpage that rely on sponsors and ad-campaigns.

Another issue, is that if someone uses a public proxy as web-cache, as many ISP`s offered them to their users, it`s very hard for a forum to shut down 50% of the country by banning that proxy...


- apt-mark hold account

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Be excellent to each other!

#25 2013-09-12 20:40:57

Linuxephus™
Banned
From: Reality Check 101.
Registered: 2013-09-11
Posts: 158

Re: A Policeman's Lot

ew wrote:

Blocking of IP-adresses is pointless against the worst cases. And most forums have just a few mods that do this on their free-time, and a really obsessed person will have a lot more patience than the mod-theme. They got to go to work, and they got to sleep, the troll in most cases doesn`t have to do any of this... The nature of our forum was also such that there had to be the possibilty to post anonymously, as many topics were so sensitive and even dangerous, that very few would dare to share their opinion if they couldn`t have done it anonymously. Making it mandatory to have a registered account almost killed the activity, and that`s not good for a startpage that rely on sponsors and ad-campaigns.

Another issue, is that if someone uses a public proxy as web-cache, as many ISP`s offered them to their users, it`s very hard for a forum to shut down 50% of the country by banning that proxy...

This is why as I previously stated that there is the option to revoke the entire IP Block range of the originating sector *or* simply revoke every IP Address associated with each new account the individual creates. Regardless of how many accounts & IP Addresses used with each new account made, they are still finite to the point that eventually the individual will exhaust, at some point in time, all avenues for even accessing the site to create further accounts for abuse.
This is exactly why with the worst cases, revoking each new IP used as the account is created is the effective deterrent provided the acting Staff Member has the time to follow thru on such which is no more than a few "clicks" away via the Mod. Panel accordingly.
Hence, one is not even attempting to "shut down 50% of a country" merely by revoking the immediate IP Address available to the abusing individual solely followed by Snipping of any egregious comments left by said abuser.
It simply comes down to merely repeating the same protocol as many time as it takes.
The worst case I personally had to deal with 37 accounts and IP's revoked from the same individual before the individual finally exhausted what was available to him for abuse and even the Will to continue even further.
In the end, the result remains the same...Revoked...regardless of how many times that simple action has to be repeated.

Regarding Staff Members that have to work and regulate the Community of their own freetime; I too did one and the same while actively being employed in an online capacity. Many may not have that leisure of course. Yet this is where Communication betwixt the acting Staff with other acting Staff comes in as an advantage to deal with that kind of problem in an overlapping field of application.
All of this is merely inherent as part of the tasks charged to a Staff Member while serving the Community in such a capacity. Occasionally it becomes necessary & shouldn't be looked at as overly taxing simply because an abuser chooses to amuse themselves (read singular) by taking the time to register new accounts for abuse with the modus operandi revolving around self-centered entertainment. The point for the abuser being to Entertain themselves at the expense of another. If the abuser is too busy having to create a new account & access a new IP, that quickly grows to be infuriating to the abuser, resulting in a  short lived onslaught to express their displeasure at being foiled, followed by simply giving up and moving on to an easier target audience.
Such is a Choice nonetheless.
Thus, logic dictates rather than letting the abuser make the choice, You (infer a Staff Member) make the choice for the abuser who failed to make the right choice to begin with.
Nothing is more infuriating to such an abuser than continuously running into a "brick wall" consisting of a revoked account & IP.
Eventually, even the most adamant knucklehead grows weary of the work required to create yet another account, find yet another available IP, only to have both yet again revoked without acknowledgement of a single word given or taken because the comment associated with the abused account is deleted.
It does admittedly take time on very rare occasions, yes.
Yet that does not negate the end result nor the necessity by which the abuser's actions merit accordingly.
And truth be told, it takes little effort to adapt to any given change of circumstances when a Staff Member inherently has the advantage to begin with, including the support of the Community as well.


-Evolution Is Merely God's Way Of Performing An Upgrade.-
-Linux: Guerrilla UNIX Development...Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.-
-Linux: The Operating System With A C.L.U.E...Command Line User Environment.-

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